ZH: As you speak about language, I am thinking of your relationship to language, which seems a bit anxious. You say that you started worrying about your own language after October 7, and you talk about your recurrent anxiety of it fading away as a result of Israeli politics of erasure. In your novels, we notice a total absence of the vernacular, especially in dialogues. In addition to this anxiety about language, there is a certain anxiety from language. In your play “A Wall for All” (2012), you also imagine the way in which language can embody violence and hegemony, turning into a weapon of terror, as we see in Minor Detail, particularly in the speech of the Israeli commander that precipitates the rape. Tell us about your anxious relationship to language and your fear of and for it.
AS: Anxiety brings us back to the question: Can we, the ones who stutter, emulate eloquent speech? Can our language, marginalized and broken as it is, match the violent language of the oppressor? And what narrative are we, the ones stuttering, capable of creating in writing? There are two central questions behind the two parts of Minor Detail: How can a text that is whole, coherent, and self-assured exist alongside another that doesn’t know where to begin? Who is really capable of writing a coherent text?
We laugh about this often in Palestine. Try asking a Palestinian what happened to them in the last couple of days. They will not start with the two days, they may begin ten years ago, or thirty, or eighty, or from the eighteenth century…don’t go all the way back there, we don’t have time for this. You don’t really know where it all started, nor where it all ends. There is an overwhelming chaos that leaves you unable to grasp the moment of beginning; and this is the stutter, this is loss in language, in narration. How are you to narrate your story? Where do you begin? We are talking about October 7. But what if we want to begin in 2021, or 2014, or even before, in 2007 or 2000, 1987, or rather in 1982…This is what narrative stuttering is about.
Then you take a serious look at clear discourse and wonder: If we had spoken with such clarity, would we be in a similar position? If we want to follow the victim, how will our language be? And what kind of narration will this engender? As we see in the world of forensic investigation, when a crime takes place, they usually follow its trail through the criminal’s perspective, because they alone survived the crime. If we imagine refusing to walk in the criminal’s footsteps, choosing instead the point that makes us recover the crime from the perspective of the victim, what would the story be then? This is the relationship between the novel’s two parts and the relationship of language between them. The two chapters have many words in common, and yet each derives from a different language, a different threshold, a different moment: to face the same place, crime, and criminal, but in the second part, to observe how time has passed and occupied these words, and how words, in turn, experienced time and were transformed by it. We might imagine the expression “Man, not the tank, shall prevail” (which appears in the Israeli commander’s speech in Minor Detail) returning today. If we are to use it today, in our time, with all the sorrow it carries, without the propaganda and heroism it claims, but rather with pain and sadness, it might perhaps carry the hope that humans will prevail.
ZH: I would like to discuss your role as a writer today by returning to an interview that Mahmoud Darwish gave shortly before his death, where he says that “to be Palestinian is not an occupation or a slogan.” He adds that the Palestinian poet, or any poet who writes under political pressure today, faces another kind of pressure, which is that of readers’ expectations. In other words, poets must perform two tasks: to be loyal to their role and their readers’ expectations while at the same time being loyal to their own poetic project. The difficulty lies in maintaining the balance.
Back to the current moment, to the Frankfurt Book Fair affair that started weeks after October 7. Your readers expected you to make a statement as an Arab writer facing silencing in Europe, or as a Palestinian writer being silenced, or as a writer from the Global South being silenced, or in any other capacity to denounce these silencing attempts.
But we noticed that you remained totally silent in the early days that followed. Even when you did address the incident in your interviews or articles, it was to raise questions rather than to make a statement. And in response to attempts at reading Minor Detail as a narrative of a true incident, you said that “A novel is a fictional endeavor” and that it bears no connection to reality. In facing this balancing act that Darwish spoke about, it seemed as if you were striving to distance your novel and your persona as a writer from the current moment of catastrophe.
I wonder, how long can you maintain this distance? And how can you maintain it when you have readers who find in your works an exit from reality, or the epistemological and aesthetic tools to deal with it? And how long can you protect your writing from the gaze of an Other who sees it as Southern literature, a literature of color, of accents? To what extent are you able to shield your writing, especially in a time of genocide, from getting entangled with the historical moment?
AS: Perhaps I should start by clarifying that I do not see myself as a writer. I write, that is all. And I write because this is the only way I have found towards life, and we may each find a certain way to it, including confrontation with its violence. Violence does not necessarily occur at the hands of colonial or occupation forces; it may be present in our personal lives, and we may each have our own way of confronting it. As for me, language has always refused any relationship of violence between us.
Generally speaking, it is not hard for me to let down the expectations of others. I have no qualms about it. The other’s expectations do not concern me. I try to forge relationships with others grounded in care and support. There is something authoritarian about expectations that I don’t wish to have with other people, nor with myself; I am not sure if I expect anything from myself. If I expect it, then I am doing it. There is no gap between the two.
And I have tried to understand why language deserted me, and continues to desert me, even as I return to speaking. I speak about everything, but there is one thing I cannot speak about, and will not be able to speak about, maybe because language refuses to be exploited by me, or to be used for ulterior motives. In my relationship with language there’s always been love. I love language and I hope that it loves me back. In this love, I don’t abuse language to go places. Sometimes, just as we wait for a beloved’s arrival, I wait for language to come, and I accept this waiting.
I am still amazed by people’s ability to speak with such lucidity. And I still wonder: When will I be able to express myself so clearly? And it may not happen. For years. And I return here to those who want to begin from the eighteenth century, I follow them and we remain stuck in the eighteenth century. But now I understand that language refuses to bend to my desire or to be exploited for other ends. When I made this discovery, I discovered that it is impossible for me to force my language to be here for me simply because I want to explain what is going on around me to others, or to be as fluent as everyone else, saying “Hey language, you must submit yourself to me.”
A relationship based on demand and order does not exist in this love that I feel towards language, which is grounded in mutual care. All I have to do is wait, wait for language to appear. I suspect that writing, writing with silence, and the perpetual return to writing, is my only way with language. I don’t want to create expectations such as that I am an eloquent speaker, and that I will now tell people everything in a clear manner, like a flight attendant. No. I am unable to do this. I write and I erase, I write and erase. This may take years. It took me twelve years to finish writing my novel [Minor Detail], and I only finished it because my publisher, Dar el-Adab, informed me: There’s no more room for any changes.